@Sandman do not confuse Freedom of Speech with Freedom from Consequences, you can say what you like, just accept that actions have consequences. Oh yes and the constitutional right to Freedom of Speech is not absolute, there is the limitation clause in the constitution, oh yes and incitement to violence can impose limits on speech. Agreeing to the statement that you did, could constitute an incitement to violence, we can test it at the HRC if you like, thus Mr Hat did the right thing in deleting your post.

Sad part about this is that what Sandman said is becoming a growing opinion that has started to emerge within the populace !disappoint !disappoint because of their actions

The criminal/militant element could only enter into these protests if

A) there already was a militant element from the beginning

the SRC was never really in charge which supports the fact that they do not speak for the student populace

C) the objective from the beginning of the protests was to incite some forms of violence( doubt it because that would mean someone had a plan from the beginning )

Students have been attempting to have this situation addressed since the end of last year, and it was only when they turned to direct acts of civil disobedience that people began to take notice. It was the only method that they had in the entire situation. I think that you have to take the violence in context, when there is brutality from both sides, near silence from the government, and severe economic hardship for many.

FatalGlory said ...

Students have been attempting to have this situation addressed since the end of last year, and it was only when they turned to direct acts of civil disobedience that people began to take notice. It was the only method that they had in the entire situation. I think that you have to take the violence in context, when there is brutality from both sides, near silence from the government, and severe economic hardship for many.

Can't argue with some of your points but I feel the protesters have still chosen a path that isolates them and the violence becomes increasingly gratuitous.

Violent protest has definitely been the main way communities get the government to pay attention, and I can see why so many poor communities resort to it. Wealthier or more skilled communities have the option of legal challenges or leveraging their own contributions when it comes to forcing the government to do something, poor and low-skilled communities do not.

With the students however, last years protests proved there was been plenty of support from political parties, senior academics and fellow students - all groups with the potential challenge the government through mass (non-violent) action, threatening to withdraw skills, or legal routes (and the legal cases against the government in the last few years should have encouraged this approach). By choosing a violent approach and immediately targeting the same institutions that could support them, they have declared their rights more important than those of others. They claim they want to change the system for the good of everybody, but it's only their battle and anyone who joins them must agree to their terms? Romanticized militancy and unflinching ideology make for dangerous combination.

That said, you're not wrong about the government and dismal police or private security behaviour. The government wants to convince everyone nothing is a "crisis" and wants to keep establishing more damn "committees", our higher education minister tires to pass the buck, all the while our president has spent most of the last 4 weeks out of country (and is now at a BRICS summit rather than dealing with this issue). The police remain useless at public order policing and the private security guys wander around the university looking either bored or nervous - neither of which is reassuring.

a Less violent approach than what i would like, is to say:

"Ok retards, you win, FREE EDUCATION for ALL!!!"

Then, when they enter the class rooms, there should be NO lecturers nor books of any sort, just a little note that reads "Welcome to free educations dumb asses"

I feel NOTHING for these students, absolutely NADA! 1st get the government to ensure at least 90% of the population pays taxes, then we can look at "free" education.

Now may all of you striking animals suffer, i'll be sure to hoot, laugh and and give you the finger when i see you begging at the robot

FatalGlory said ...

Students have been attempting to have this situation addressed since the end of last year, and it was only when they turned to direct acts of civil disobedience that people began to take notice. It was the only method that they had in the entire situation. I think that you have to take the violence in context, when there is brutality from both sides, near silence from the government, and severe economic hardship for many.

It was when they protested peacefully people took notice of their plight but when it turned violent people stopped caring.

...and when they finished getting their free education (that the taxpayers are paying for), they will enter the working class and will have to pay taxes, which will fund the free education that they are fighting for. What then, are they going to burn SARS down because they don't want to fund free education?

Or are they going to burn buildings down because they don't want to work for money, money must be free?

Scottie said ...

FatalGlory said ...

Students have been attempting to have this situation addressed since the end of last year, and it was only when they turned to direct acts of civil disobedience that people began to take notice. It was the only method that they had in the entire situation. I think that you have to take the violence in context, when there is brutality from both sides, near silence from the government, and severe economic hardship for many.

It was when they protested peacefully people took notice of their plight but when it turned violent people stopped caring.

I think it depends on how you define "peaceful". If by "peaceful" you mean "protests without disruptions" I disagree, and believe that we have evidence to the contrary. Students have been attempting to bring attention to this issue since before FeesMustFall 2015 and have been continuously sought dialog throughout the year before these protests finally erupted.

If "peaceful" means "protests with disruptions but no harm to people or property" then I agree. When the protests turned hostile -- actually pretty early on during the disruptions -- public support seemed to drop. On the other hand, you have to look at many of these acts in context. The stone throwing was wrong, but was a response to security brutality that was not heavily publicized. The bus burning came as a result of all sides acting irresponsibly -- the police, students, and the university.

Chasing students out of their rooms with fire extinguishers was and still is unacceptable -- I don't think that there is much of a defense for that. On the other hand, the presence of destruction of property at night is a clear message from students feeling that their voices have been silenced. Instituting a curfew has arguably made matters worse and strikes me as culturally insensitive, and strategically a very bad move on the university's part.

I think that the situation is pretty bad for all sides involved -- the side who ends up worse changes by the day.

Morschee said ...

a Less violent approach than what i would like, is to say:

"Ok retards, you win, FREE EDUCATION for ALL!!!"

Then, when they enter the class rooms, there should be NO lecturers nor books of any sort, just a little note that reads "Welcome to free educations dumb asses"

I feel NOTHING for these students, absolutely NADA! 1st get the government to ensure at least 90% of the population pays taxes, then we can look at "free" education.

Now may all of you striking animals suffer, i'll be sure to hoot, laugh and and give you the finger when i see you begging at the robot

This response strikes me as out of touch and overly inflammatory. I don't think that the use of such language to describe a highly political and very sensitive situation is very responsible on your part.

Firstly, close to 100% of the adult population pays tax in this country in the form of VAT. A far smaller percentage pay PAYE, but if you would like that changed you either have to beat the poor further down than they already have been, or come up with some kind of strategy for wide-spread economic empowerment.

It's great that you feel "NOTHING" for these students -- being emotionally stunted must be an incredibly comfy state to be in -- so well done with that. However, keep in mind that many of these students that you refuse to even acknowledge as human beings have to make do with little food, sub-par secondary education, and financially disadvantage to the extent that they resort to sleeping in computer labs and libraries. Yet, many of them are still able to work their way to a degree, hoping to achieve a better future for themselves and their families.

Just remember, these are some of the people that you feel nothing for, as you write these hate-filled messages on a hobbyist message board with a house to go back to, internet, and game consoles.

If your economic superiority truly makes you as morally and intellectually superior as your post would suggest you think you are, then I suggest that you try have a little more compassion for your fellow human beings in future.

FatalGlory said ...

Scottie said ...

FatalGlory said ...

Students have been attempting to have this situation addressed since the end of last year, and it was only when they turned to direct acts of civil disobedience that people began to take notice. It was the only method that they had in the entire situation. I think that you have to take the violence in context, when there is brutality from both sides, near silence from the government, and severe economic hardship for many.

It was when they protested peacefully people took notice of their plight but when it turned violent people stopped caring.

I think it depends on how you define "peaceful". If by "peaceful" you mean "protests without disruptions" I disagree, and believe that we have evidence to the contrary. Students have been attempting to bring attention to this issue since before FeesMustFall 2015 and have been continuously sought dialog throughout the year before these protests finally erupted.

If "peaceful" means "protests with disruptions but no harm to people or property" then I agree. When the protests turned hostile -- actually pretty early on during the disruptions -- public support seemed to drop. On the other hand, you have to look at many of these acts in context. The stone throwing was wrong, but was a response to security brutality that was not heavily publicized. The bus burning came as a result of all sides acting irresponsibly -- the police, students, and the university.

Chasing students out of their rooms with fire extinguishers was and still is unacceptable -- I don't think that there is much of a defense for that. On the other hand, the presence of destruction of property at night is a clear message from students feeling that their voices have been silenced. Instituting a curfew has arguably made matters worse and strikes me as culturally insensitive, and strategically a very bad move on the university's part.

I think that the situation is pretty bad for all sides involved -- the side who ends up worse changes by the day.

I define it as not infringing on the constitutional rights of another person.

I see no solution for this issue due the poor state of the economy.

I can tell you that the protesting students have lost the 'hearts and minds' of most South Africans I have spoken to. Hopefully it can be resolved but concessions always need to be made on BOTH sides.

Scottie said ...

FatalGlory said ...

Scottie said ...

FatalGlory said ...

Students have been attempting to have this situation addressed since the end of last year, and it was only when they turned to direct acts of civil disobedience that people began to take notice. It was the only method that they had in the entire situation. I think that you have to take the violence in context, when there is brutality from both sides, near silence from the government, and severe economic hardship for many.

It was when they protested peacefully people took notice of their plight but when it turned violent people stopped caring.

I think it depends on how you define "peaceful". If by "peaceful" you mean "protests without disruptions" I disagree, and believe that we have evidence to the contrary. Students have been attempting to bring attention to this issue since before FeesMustFall 2015 and have been continuously sought dialog throughout the year before these protests finally erupted.

If "peaceful" means "protests with disruptions but no harm to people or property" then I agree. When the protests turned hostile -- actually pretty early on during the disruptions -- public support seemed to drop. On the other hand, you have to look at many of these acts in context. The stone throwing was wrong, but was a response to security brutality that was not heavily publicized. The bus burning came as a result of all sides acting irresponsibly -- the police, students, and the university.

Chasing students out of their rooms with fire extinguishers was and still is unacceptable -- I don't think that there is much of a defense for that. On the other hand, the presence of destruction of property at night is a clear message from students feeling that their voices have been silenced. Instituting a curfew has arguably made matters worse and strikes me as culturally insensitive, and strategically a very bad move on the university's part.

I think that the situation is pretty bad for all sides involved -- the side who ends up worse changes by the day.

I define it as not infringing on the constitutional rights of another person.

I see no solution for this issue due the poor state of the economy.

I can tell you that the protesting students have lost the 'hearts and minds' of most South Africans I have spoken to. Hopefully it can be resolved but concessions always need to be made on BOTH sides.

There will be a meeting tomorrow with Jay Naidoo, Advocate Thuli Madonsela, and Father Graham Pugin at the Trinity Church adjacent to Wits. I hope that some kind of progress can be made there.

FatalGlory said ...



Just remember, these are some of the people that you feel nothing for, as you write these hate-filled messages on a hobbyist message board with a house to go back to, internet, and game consoles.

Correct, and all those lovely things i have was all paid for, NOTHING was for free So just like me, pay for your studies, work hard, and you can be as awesome as me

Free...pfft...these clowns need to come back down to reality, the world is a lot harsher after studies, guess these "future" leader are going to burn down the rest of africa because they gonna want PS4's and cars and houses free as well...

*Oh...and if you think I come from a rich back ground, guess again. I just decided not to struggle as an adult as i did as a kid. Work, work, work...and pay for everything you want. That's how the real world works

.

Looks like Wits student leader is going to spend a month in jail after being denied bail.

http://ewn.co.za/2016/10/19/Wits-student-leader-Mcebo-Dlamni-denied-bail

More bad news for him

Gauteng MEC to review Mcebo Dlamini's university funding

http://ewn.co.za/2016/10/19/Gauteng-Education-to-review-funding-given-to-Mcebo-Dlamini

For me I mostly support the move towards free education, but I do not support THIS movement.

I come from a privileged past by South African standards. My first year of college was paid for fully by my parents and the 2nd year with a student loan that took 2 years for me to pay off. I had food and transport sorted and a safe place to stay with family when I was studying.

I acknowledge that this is not the norm for most of the country and that support should be given to those that have proven they will not waste an education, but who do not have all the means to get one themselves. I completely believe that the main way to combat the major issues facing South Africa (corruption, poverty, inequality… ) is through empowering and educating people.

That brings us to the current state of FMF. I do not agree with it and feel it has other political motives. If a student really cared about free education for all they would not burn down the resources needed to achieve this. The focus on tertiary education also speaks to a narrow and unthought out approach. Our basic education needs to be addressed, so that more can benefit and not the few in higher education. All of this (to me) points to an outside influence pushing an agenda of instability and influencing young minds to create chaos by playing on their emotions.

Government do need to give this more attention then they are now. This ivory tower syndrome on display is not helping things at all and is just making for more resentment and frustration to be misdirected towards burning and destroying things! Saying all that, I had more sympathy a month ago before they started harassing students, burning things and setting up petrol bombs! Even though it might only be a small group of the whole doing these acts, they have lost a lot of the publics support

TUT announces 0% fee increase for 2017

New idea for student fees a permanent increase per a year with bonus increases for destruction of property and injuries.

Deaths due to protests/rioting equals mass expulsions unless culprits are brought forward or even suspension of studies for 3 months with no adjustments of school year because of suspension of studies. Lecturers will be asked if they can make video lectures for students or create study material that is self study. This will include a maximum fee increase for that year.

A program to collect the nsfas outstanding payments will also be needed this program would have to be developed so that the people cannot get the courts to intervene and stop the collection of outstanding payments. This is a counter towards the students using the courts to stop garnishing orders placed against them by the nsfas.

It is a cruel method I know but until a proper plan or the students begin to understand the sheer insanity of their demands. Making it easier for students that come from poverty or cannot get there because of the limits of their parents income to get a education beyond matric I fully support that

Great news everyone...One of these so called disadvantaged students, who wants everything for free, and complains about "police brutality" (cause they aren't violent at all), decided to jump on a bus full of students on their way to WITS, and petrol bombed it. Fortunately everyone managed to get off the bus and no one was reported to have any injuries.

Please throw your support behind these protesters, as they such nice people, and DAMN these vigilantes that wants to go to University and study, how dare they!!!

#Civilisedpeoplemustfall